PWF Main Group (Public Community)
6 Suprising Lessons I learned as an Intermediate PWF studentAaron posted a year ago*
So, I've been a student of the Playing with Fire community for nearly a year now. I've been even more fortunate to also receive 1:1 coaching from some of the best guys in this community, including my mentor Indian PE and even on occasion Alex and David themselves.
In all that time, I've learned a LOT. When I discovered PWF, I had no idea what I was doing (very much a beginner). Now, I see somewhat consistent results (intermediate). I'm even able to help out fellow community members.
In this post, I wanted to share some of the top lessons I've learned during my time here. If you can internalize these lessons, you'll be able to see a huge and quick jump in the results of your online dating.
1. Double texts are often a death sentence.
This is one of the most common mistakes I see in the Mastermind, even with guys who have been in the community a long time. When I'm talking about double texts, by the way, I mean sending more than one text in short succession. Double texting 24-48 hours after receiving no response is a totally different strategy, one that can be effective when employed correctly.
I suspect there is one main reason why guys are so tempted to double text. After hitting 'send', guys start analyzing and worrying about the messages they sent. They do this to the point where they overthink it. And so they double text in an effort to recover in some fashion.
And yes, they may have sent a suboptimal text. But, the attempt to recover comes off as low value, lacking options with women (abundance), or otherwise super lame. And so these second texts end up hurting, rather than helping.
99% of the time it's better to be stuck with a single suboptimal message than it is to double text her.
So, the next time you're tempted to double text, don't! Leave your single message, and give her at least 24-48 hours to respond before you send another text.
2. Your texts don't always have to make perfect logical sense.
I'm not talking about ridiculous, gamey, or silly messages here. Instead, and similar to #1, I often find that guys way overanalyze messages, often worrying about ridiculous scenarios they've invented in their heads that are highly unlikely to unfold.
Keep in mind, men are the logical gender. We men say what we mean, and we mean what we say. Women are much more driven by emotions. For women, they communicate a lot more using subcommunication. In other words, the subtext of what you say matters much more than what you actually say.
As a specific example, one of Alex's most preferred replies to "How are you?" is, "Good, just finished a killer workout. Looking nice and jacked for our date".
This line is packed with value. First, it replies to her question. Second, it shows her value by saying that you workout. Third, it baits her with the idea of a date -- which she may hook onto.
But when I suggest this, I sometimes hear from guys in the community, "It's 1 PM, and I'm at work. I can't send that!" or "It's 12 AM, she obviously won't believe it."
A similar one is, "I'm awesome! Having a glass of wine on my romantic patio" (credit Indian PE). But a guy worries about this because "It's raining today" or "It's too cold to be on your patio".
This is where men's logic and tendency to overthink is to their detriment. Odds are, girls aren't going to say anything about this. You, as a man, focus on the logic of these statements. The girl focuses on the emotions she's feeling from all the value that's packed into it.
3. Calibrate your messaging, particularly the valuable things you display about yourself to the woman, based on the kind of girl she is.
With online dating, she will determine you to have some level of initial value to her. She bases this on your looks and what she's able to discern from your pictures and bio. Then, you spark further attraction in her by showing her that you are high value. You show value through what you communicate and tell about yourself.
Having "good text game" is core to this, but of course, learning text game is something that happens over time. The other part is telling and showing her areas of value from your life. This is sometimes referred to as "displaying higher value" or "DHVing".
One frequent mistake I see guys make is showing the same areas of value with every single woman. Instead, you need to think about what type of woman the girl is, based on her photos and bio.
Here are two archetypes of women to help solidify this concept this for you:
A hard-working professional woman who is career-oriented.
Good way to display value: Telling her about how you had a recent meeting with the CEO and board of directors of your company.
Bad way to display value: Telling her about all the parties you've been going to lately and how you've been staying out every night until 5 AM.
A college girl who's into music festivals and partying.
Good way to display value: Telling her about a DJ you dated and the crazy parties you are now able to get VIP access to.
Bad way to display value: Telling her about your career and ambitions.
4. You can build attraction (and more) over text.
An old mantra I used to hear from dating coaches was that you could never attract a girl over text messages. That texting was a mechanism for setting up dates and logistics, but nothing more.
Playing with Fire totally flipped this for me. I've seen Alex and David do crazy things over text messaging that shocked me. One amazing example of this is how you can trigger women to get what you want.
By subtly showing your value over texts, which includes the way you text her (again, "text game"), you can -- and will -- get women attracted to you. And from there, you can get her invested in you and even compliant with you.
5. Persistence is not the same as neediness.
One of the biggest things you hear as you study dating / seduction is to "never be needy." And yes, this is true -- once you come across as needy, a woman will immediately lose all attraction for you.
But, this mindset led to a lot of false limiting beliefs for me. Examples of things I believed included:
- Once a girl flaked on you for a date, you should stop pursuing her.
- If a girl stopped responding, you were chasing her and being needy if you kept trying to text her.
- If a girl wasn't showing interest, you were chasing her and being needy if you kept trying to text her.
Yet, Playing with Fire has shown that persistence is not the same as neediness. After all, women have a lot going on in their lives, too. Many already have one or more men in their lives in some fashion. Plus, every woman has lots of other guys messaging them online. Most of the time, you aren't a priority for them until you've had sex at least once or twice. This is why it's crucial to be persistent, because women can and will forget about you. Indeed, there are many love reports on this site showing how ridiculous persistence can turn into sex.
Since discovering PWF, I've had women say that the only reason they met was my persistence. I even had one compliment my persistence after we had sex!
Ok then, what's the difference between persistence and neediness? Well, it's a bit hard to explain.
It comes down to your mindset in pursuing the girl (because women are shockingly adept at reading what's actually on your mind).
Not Needy: When you're persisting to meet with a woman, but your messages and texting indicate you don't really care whether you actually meet (showing "outcome independence" and "abundance").
Needy: When you're pushing to text and meet with a woman, and it's clear you really care about meeting her (such as coming across butthurt, or even just more invested in the meetup than she is).
6. Identifying your sticking points and making a few tweaks can transform your results!
As I've said before, women are overrun with attention with online dating. Any decent looking woman in a decently sized city will have tons of options. So, it's important to not only stand out, but to avoid making basic mistakes.
The Free Playing with Fire eBook shares all of the introductory knowledge you need to nail down the fundamentals and stop making the worst mistakes. It's a great way to jumpstart your online dating results and start having sex with the women you desire.
And if you are ready to truly transform your results, the Full Playing with Fire Online Dating Blueprint is the most exhaustive guide to online dating out there. It contains 10 in-depth modules plus numerous bonus modules. Plus, it includes a month of free access to the Mastermind coaching platform. Men who have purchased the product have literally gone from being virgins to sleeping with dozens of beautiful women in a single year.
Bonus Lesson: Copying and pasting lines is not effective.
I see so many guys who just copy and paste lines that they see others use. Then when they post their full conversation, it either makes no sense or simply isn't congruent. You can read it and tell that it reads like multiple different guys are texting her!
Instead, the key is to learn the ideas behind the different canned messages you see used.
With some experience under my belt now, I start to see patterns in conversations that recur. Some of these patterns happen a lot (when she asks "How's your day going?"), and some happen less often.
But by understanding the ideas behind messages, you'll be in a strong position when you see a pattern repeat. You either use the canned line (if it makes sense), or you can use the concept from that line to develop your own that fits better.
So as you look at lines that Alex, David, Indian PE, and others use, ask yourself some questions:
- What was the girl communicating before he sent this line? (Again, women communicate much more subtly than men. So what she says may not be what she actually means. Try to understand the subtext of her message.)
- What things does this line communicate?
- Why does this line make sense here?
- What is this line meant to accomplish?
- What are the possible responses you could get to this line? How would you respond to each of those responses?
If you focus on breaking down the meaning of messages, rather than just copying and pasting, you'll be able to learn so much faster.
Success storiesIke posted 4 months ago
Since joining PWF a couple of weeks ago, I understand (online) game a lot better. A lot of valuable content on here!
But I notice a small gap in practical application. The lay reports show a lot of good info, but it seems most of the time there is already pretty good response/investment from the start. In combination with the skills of the PWF men, it can feel like a big gap. Where we start as rookies and where they are already.
I think it would be very beneficial if the guys on here would share some stories about how they turned around their game. Some before and after text game screenshots, the mental aspect of it etc.
Now we just need YOU to break the ice and post YOUR succes story in this thread!
Conversation getting badRaph posted 2 hours ago
I match a girl from tinder but she thinks I am judging her. This is not the first time this has happened to me but I can’t read between the lines. And if I answer I will be too much in confrontation. Someone can explain to me what i did wrong and how to respond please ?
The conversation is in french, i have translated that.
Me « Hi trouble »
Her « i didn’t know i was trouble »
Me « you mean you are always nice ? »
Her « adorable even »
Me « i wish you were a little crazy because we would have match much better in real life »
Her « ah yeah it’s stupid/sucks ». « Bye then »
Me « yeah it’s stupid ». « you were my type, cute , elegant with a wild side. But if there is no chemistry, it doesn’t work »
Her « With 3 messages exchanged, it is that we can immediately realize it ». « And apparently you don’t know the irony »
Me « I see you like to be sarcastic »
Her « with people who make themselves an image of others in 30sec, yes »
Thanks for the advice
Too gamey, need to reengageXavier posted 5 days ago*
Came off too gamey with cute neighbor. Need to reengage. Does this work? I feel I need to address the previous message first our she'll just label me as too gamey and not worth answering
Option 1: "Anyways, when are we taking our dogs for a double date"
Option 2: No? I meant they're a lot of "drama" lol
How to re-engage her reply any advice and suggestions?Mark posted 2 days ago
She replyed well what can I say their my babies. I was thinking of saying something like your babies look cute just like you or would that sound to predictable? What would be the right phrase?
New PhotosSam posted a day ago
Hey fellas, just recently new Photos of me have been taken. I've been very positive about the results but I am wondering if they might seem staged. What is your guys opinion?
Quality wise they are all much better then my current (old) ones. So my hope is to be able to use them ln tinder, bumble and co. .
Help get past the "i have to self isolate" wallDan posted 3 days ago
What do i say here? Bit of back story with this chick. We talked on snapchat about 2 months ago and were gonna meet up to drink aperol spritz at the house on a saturday night but on the day she cancels cause she had to be up early which was legit. I tried to reachedule to the next night which was a sunday night and she said she was too tired. So then during that week tried to get it going the next weekend which she just said shes busy. So i stopped talking to her altogether (i have a low attention span with chicks in general and stop talking to em especially we havent met irl)
And now on monday night we matched on tinder here as seen below and i opened with 'oh hey stranger' then the rest of the convo is as follows. She responded to my last message today (wednesday). I need something to say that still goes towards a meetup direction. Cheers
My Current Bio *included is a small tangent about random things as wellDavis posted 18 hours ago*
This is my current bio. Stay persistent with girls, they find it very attractive when a guy is persistent and knows what he wants.
As far as texting goes don't be too over sexual, I've found that most girls will get scared to come over if you're too sexual. I've had multiple girls tell me after we hooked up they didn't expect that out of me.
I've also integrated FaceTime with most girls before we meet. I have some LR's coming on this... They tend to seem I'm some catfish. This builds a lot of comforts and if your smooth and have a nice voice over the phone it will make the girls much more likely to see you. Plus when you're on Ft it's super easy to set plans and answer any objections she may have get good at answering common objections girls may have. The same texting objections can be used over the phone.
Also, have a life outside of the girls. Girls like a man who is busy and ambitious. Don't flaunt your money and possessions either. For my age (20) I keep my room tidy and drive and nice car etc.. Girls will constantly compliment me about this. I just say "Thanks, I try" "Ya it's just a car it doesn't really matter, all that matters is Point A to Point B" If you can casually brush these things off like it's not that big of a deal it's going to make girls like you more.
Hit her up once maybe twice a week. I always make plans with the girls before they leave so were both on the same page for when they are coming over again. Plus, the vibe is good when shes over and shes much more inclined to agree to plans in person and you don't have to deal with all the leg work over text again. I work 40hrs a week and took a couple of summer classes this summer. I also tell girls I do internet marketing for my uncle's company anywhere from 10-20hrs a week and I do it sparingly in my free time. This is a little white lie It lets them know that I can be busy at any time and I can virtually blame everything on work.
What am I supposed to say? Lately I just feel like I've lost any ability to understand this..D posted 3 days ago
I need some help with this conversation. Lately I've been feeling lost when it comes to this type of stuff. Feeling like any game I had is now missing.
Shadow Banned on Tinder/Bumble?Taron posted 3 days ago
Hey Guys, I guess I want to address something that has been messing me up for quite a while now. So I’m someone who has always had trouble using tinder and Bumble efficiently, and whilst ever since I came across the PWF YouTube channel, I’ve made multiple changes to my bio, pics ect, I’ve been seeing little to no results at all. Not to blow smoke up my own ass but these apps are solely based on physical attraction and to be fair, I am a good looking guy with an interesting lifestyle. I’ve never had dramas with meeting attractive women on the street in real life or anything, provided I put in the effort and limited time that I have into it. Anyway my point is, I think I might be shadow banned on tinder and bumble, on bumble, I only get maybe 1 like per week sometimes and on tinder, I may get a couple matches per week since I use tinder gold but that’s it literally. I have friends who don’t put nearly as much effort and thought into this as I do who are killing it and it’s honestly frustrating. I’m on the verge of giving up and just doing pickup only like I was doing.
On Tinder, I have reset my account to many times in the past and I also went through a 1.5 year period where I hardly used it and before that, I really didn’t know how to use it well so I sucked anyway only got back into it to begin with because of Covid. I’ve likely done way to many account resets as well. As with Bumble, I had the same account for 4 years and was largely inactive on it until recently. I did a recent account reset with a different Facebook ect and it didn’t make a difference at all. As with Tinder, it’s hard to tell if it’s the app itself sabotaging me cause the few matches I get per week have all been decent quality girls but with bumble, it’s definetly more likely that I’ve been banned or flagged or something. If anyone can give me some insight on what could be going on, I’d greatly appreciate it.
Can someone give me feedback about my Instagram account? Is it good or not?Stefan posted 4 days ago
@stefananevski - my instagram account name
Thank you in advance!
Barely Any MatchesAlex posted 2 days ago
Just joined tinder and barely getting any matches. Also my likes are barely going up. It's frustrating because I know guys that are less attractive than me but are killing it on tinder.
I'll post my profile and would appreciate any feedback! Already had some friends that are girls check it out that liked the photos so I'm confused.
Another Blonde LR Solid with ReschduleDavis posted 2 days ago*
So to put into context, I rescheduled because I had a fuck buddy hit me up and ask to come over and I wasn't gonna turn that down after this chick took an hour to respond. But in the end, the lay happened and that's all that matters.
Another thing, I've been in this forum for almost a year or so now. My texting and how I deal with these girls has not always been this good and my game just keeps getting better and I'm not even 21 yet. *Cant go to bars and clubs... For me, its been a slow progression, but once you figure it out girls come through the funnel-like fish in a barrel.
How To Make A Girl Horny Over Text (and Come Straight To Your House)avilench posted a day ago
New Vid Out: https://youtu.be/ID95BpdbtDk
Got another one. I keep getting lockdown chicksDan posted 2 days ago
This is a different chick from my last post..been talking to this one for like a week. Basically Melbourne got put into lockdown proper with a 8pm curfew but we both live in a regional town that's not in lockdown like this. Our lockdown is just all the shit is closed except essentials and takeaway. No curfew and we have to wear a mask outside and not allowed to visit people's houses unless its a relationship. We met on tinder then got number and talked and then she deleted tinder but like 20 min ago i just matched with her on bumble. So shes either looking for dick still or just wants attention.
What should i go with her? How can i convince her to get around...all the stuff i think of saying are too aggressively pushy, or steer towards the conspiracy theories so i need help lol...or should i just give up at this point and try to string it along for the next 6 weeks when lockdown ends?